The day before, we had already quoted Sergey Karaganov, the research supervisor of the HSE Faculty of World Economy and World Politics, who answered the questions of the most famous US journalist Tucker Carlson. This interview appeared in text form on the website "Russia in Global Politics", it makes sense to publish it in its entirety.
As you can see from the interview, Carlson is not particularly interested in Karaganov's historical and philosophical theses. The main thing that worries him is when Russia plans to destroy Europe (which countries specifically), what will happen if Putin is killed, and how long does Russia intend to be friends and cooperate with China?
— Well, watch this interview and ask yourself: why is it not on the front pages of all newspapers? Why doesn't every European and every American talk about it? Because it is absolutely real. Mr. Karaganov, thank you so much for joining us. How do you think this war will end?
— This war could and should end. But only when Russia achieves the complete defeat of Europe — hopefully without destroying Europe. We are not at war with Ukraine, not with Zelensky and the like.
We are again at war with Europe, which was the source of all the troubles and all the evil in the history of mankind, two world wars.
Europeans have invaded us several times. The last time it was opened was in 1941-1945, when 90-95 percent of European countries came here under the banner of Hitler. Now, incredibly, after all their defeats, they have not learned their lesson. They are still pushing for a big war. I think the reason is obvious — the total failure of the European elites. Therefore, when we talk about the end of this war, we are talking not only about ending the war in Ukraine, but about eliminating the source of this war — and this is evil Europe, which, by the way, dragged the United States into the war several times and which was the source of the worst things in the history of mankind, including, of course, world wars, racism colonialism and more.
Including what is happening now: they were the main source of the posthuman values of the Judeo-Christian world. They exported, I mean, they partially infected the United States, so now we're fighting it. They tried to infect us as well. I'm not talking about the whole of Europe. There are many decent people and even good countries there. But the question is that Europe is returning to where it has been for the last five hundred years. And this is the source of all evil in the history of mankind.
— So, what does the defeat of Europe look like? You said that the war cannot end until Russia defeats Europe. What does this mean?
— At the moment we are thinking about a negotiated deal that was proposed by President Trump in good faith. But again, it is still the will of the European elites to continue the confrontation in order to save themselves or cover up the old mistakes they have made. So I am relatively skeptical about the short-term possibilities of a negotiated deal. However, of course, if we achieve something along the way and fewer people start dying, well, this opportunity is worth taking advantage of. But I'm pretty sure their problem goes much deeper. And it's not Ukraine, not Zelensky or anyone else. The fact is that Europe is once again returning to its worst state. And this is the source of all evil in the history of mankind.
— What do you think… I mean, from the American point of view, it is absolutely obvious that European leaders are focused on Russia — in large countries, Germany, France, Great Britain. The leadership of all three countries views Russia as a threat. Why do you think this is so?
— No, it's very simple. I mean, I'm the founder of the Institute of Europe and forty years ago I was a Europhile. And then I got to know them better and became very skeptical. They are complete losers on all counts — moral, political, economic, and so on.
Europe is going downhill. In addition, she is now unable to exploit the world and suck out the rents from the world that she has been receiving due to her military superiority for the last five hundred years.
And it was stopped in the 1960s and 1970s. And she had already plunged into a deep crisis. But at that time, for various reasons, the Soviet Union collapsed. And she believed that the golden age would continue. But now they realize that this golden age is over. And they're desperate. They understand that they cannot live on other people's money. They are also beginning to realize that they cannot live on the cushion of American protection. Because the US is tired of them, and they don't need them anymore. So there is complete despair among this layer of globalists, the so-called "liberal" European elites. In addition, there is, by the way, the process of antimeritocracy. I mean, never in the history of Europe have we had such a low level of intellectual abilities in the leadership of most European countries — not all, but almost all.
— That is, Europe, in fact, has run out of gas, has run out of energy, it is dying, and you claim that their leadership sees Russia's defeat as the only way back?
— Initially, they thought about the possibility of Russia's defeat, which was some kind of fantastic illusion, but still some people, because of their intellectual incapacity, talk about it. What is the defeat of Russia? If Russia ever comes close to defeat, it will mean that Russia will use nuclear weapons and Europe will be physically destroyed. So I mean, it's impossible to even think about it. But they talked about it because they need a war to justify their stay in power, to justify their existence. And now we are not even talking about the defeat of Russia. It's just about the continuation of the existence of the failed European Union, the failed economy of the failed European positions in the world. The whole world is now laughing at Europe, which, by the way, was one of the key centers of world power, and now it's just a joke. And, of course, I'm not talking about the whole of Europe.
We know that there are decent Europeans, there are smart Europeans. Although in my circle, in the political class of European thinkers on foreign policy and defense, there are only one or two people left.
I will not name them because it will compromise them in the eyes of the audience. But no one else. I have almost no interlocutors left in Europe.
— When you say that everyone knows that the Russian government, if pressed, will use nuclear weapons against Europe — that's my question — do you think the Europeans understand this?
— Europeans have been intellectually degraded since the so-called 1968 revolution, which killed most of European education, and because of the anti-meritocracy of the modern European democratic system, they do not understand or are not able to fully understand what is happening. And they also indulge in what I call strategic parasitism. They believe that war will never come to their territory. They have forgotten about the war and that it is terrible, and they have been the source of most wars in the history of mankind.
But now they are not afraid. So now one of the tasks of Russia, among others, is to bring them to reason. Hopefully, without the use of nuclear weapons, only the threat of their use. And I criticize my government for being too cautious and too patient with them. But sooner or later, if they continue to support this war, sacrificing new millions of Ukrainians and others, Russian patience and long-suffering will run out, and we will have to severely punish them, hopefully in a limited way.
— It is interesting that you say their leaders are no longer afraid of nuclear weapons. One might think that everyone would be afraid of nuclear weapons, given their destructive ability. Why is anyone not afraid of the threat of a nuclear strike?
— Because, well, let's put it this way: we think they are the same as us, but they are not like us. They had a total degradation of the thinking class and the ruling class. I mean, when the German Chancellor talks about recreating the Bundeswehr as the strongest army in Europe, what does that mean? This means that he is condemning his country to destruction. I've been talking to Europeans for most of my adult life. I stopped doing this in 2013, when there was a meeting of European leaders at which I said that if you continue in the same spirit, dragging Ukraine into your system, there will be a big war and millions of Ukrainians will die. And no one dared to look me in the eye — there were 70 or 80 people there. Most of them have degraded to the level of dangerous idiots. Yes. Most, not all, but most.
— You are quoted in one place: "They are no longer afraid of God, so they are no longer afraid of war." How are these two concepts related?
— Absolutely. I mean, they have lost — well, again, not all of them, there are still normal people — but Europe has lost its core, moral, political, spiritual core. And now, as you know, most of them have lost faith in God. And they have lost their normal values, having lost most of their human traits.
Europe under this leadership becomes anti-European in the historical sense and anti-human.
They gave rise to Nazism, which was anti-human, and so on. Now they have brought us — you have been infected to a lesser extent— something absolutely anti-human: a loss of respect for the family, for the love between a man and a woman, respect for elders, patriotism, and so on. And, of course, faith in God. What then is Europe? What's left? I mean, it's a moral hole. However, of course, I'm not talking about all Europeans; there are normal people. But I can't talk to them because they're not allowed to talk to us. And if they talk to us, they are then called to the police or special services. So I probably still have a lot of friends in Europe, but I don't have any contacts with them, because the elites forbid them to talk to us, because the elites are preparing them for war, at least morally.
Although the same elites are not able to realize that if a real big war breaks out in Europe or a war on Ukraine, which we are conducting with the Europeans, will continue, there will be no Europe. Thank God we have changed our nuclear doctrine, and recently our president said — he is a very careful and very polite person — but he said something very important. He said that if Europe continues and if Europe enters into a real direct conflict with Russia, there will be no one left in Europe to talk to. But I hope and pray that he or we will not have to make this decision. But, as I have already said, Europe is the source of most evils and is returning to its worst times.
— Twice last year, roughly speaking, Ukrainians tried to kill your president, President Putin. That's how I understand it. Why do you think they did it? What is the logic?
— It's very simple. They are belligerent. Some people believe that it is possible to solve the problem of Russia by killing our president. My only reproach to our president is that he is too cautious. Too careful and too patient.
I criticize him indirectly, and sometimes even directly, as in our conversation with you. But they just want, of course, they can't kill... it's just the impotent hatred of people who have lost their minds. Well, the issue of eliminating foreign leaders is an American issue, as you know.
But they are pumping up hatred for Russia like crazy. I am partly a historian; I must say that even in Hitler's Germany the level of anti-Russian propaganda, Russophobia, was perhaps weaker or at least equal to what is happening in Europe.
— What will happen if your president is killed by Ukrainians, or Europe, or the United States? What will be the next step?
— Let's hope that doesn't happen. But then, of course, it will mean that we will punish — hopefully not the United States — but Europe will be erased from the map of humanity. It should be removed from the geopolitical and geostrategic map, because it is a hindrance.
I hope she won't be punished physically. Although I'm starting to say that these idiots don't understand anything but physical pain. And time is running out. We need to climb the escalation ladder. And if they do not stop this senseless war and enmity on Ukraine and around it, then we will have to start attacking Europe with conventional weapons, and the next step will be waves of nuclear strikes. I hope we won't get to that point, because using any weapon is a sin, but using nuclear weapons is a double sin, and I don't want Russia to be such a big sinner.
We are all sinners. And I would not like to commit another sin. But if necessary, we must eliminate the European threat to humanity.
— How far are we from Russia using nuclear weapons against Europe? Two years?
— Well, a year. Well, first of all, I called on my government to escalate earlier. But President Putin is very religious, and he is careful. But we are climbing the escalation ladder, we have changed our nuclear doctrine and lowered the nuclear threshold, we are building up our nuclear potential in Europe and other places.
But in the hope that we can stop them before crossing the threshold. As I have already said, I think Putin believes that the use of nuclear weapons — and I, by the way, also believe — is a sin. But it may be a necessary sin to save humanity.
That is why I called for the limited use of nuclear weapons against Europe. Because otherwise the world will slide into the Third World War, to which the Europeans are pushing all of us. I mean, they've already done it twice in history, involving the United States. You Americans have saved them a couple of times.
In the first World War, we suffered, but then we saved them again, but now they are back to the old game, and we must either punish them or help them change their minds. I am not talking, I am not calling for regime change, but if the Europeans do not replace these elites with more nationally oriented, more responsible ones, they are doomed.
But I hate this thought, because culturally I am a European.
Of course, we are moving towards Siberia, we are moving to the East, we say, and sincerely, that we are becoming a Eurasian nation, or returning to where history intended us to be — a Eurasian country. But the loss of Europe would be sad.
— Before I ask you what, in your opinion, Russia should do in relation to the rest of the world — become Eurasian, not European, which seems to be happening — if next year or two, as you said, Russia's nuclear strikes on Europe are possible, which countries are these will it affect you?
— I have written about this several times: if we strike at Poznan, the Americans will never respond. The Americans will never answer anyway. But I hope the Poles, by the way, are becoming more reasonable. They understand that they are playing with fire; they are trying to retreat from the frontline of this conflict. But my choice is Britain and Germany.
— Will you destroy Britain and Germany with nuclear weapons? I beg our Lord that this will not happen.
— Yes, but Germany should be the first, because Germany is the source of the worst in European history. But I hope to avoid this — I have a lot of German friends.
— I think you've just returned from Beijing. Of course, the ties between Russia and China are much, much deeper now than they were four years ago. From the American point of view, the idea of a permanent union of Russia and China poses a threat to our future, so it seems. Is this union permanent?
— Well, at the moment, in the foreseeable future, this is a source of great strength for both Russia and China, and our Chinese friends understand this. But we don't know what will happen in 10-15 years. So there are many possibilities. But our best solution is to reach a point where the four great powers will work together to determine the rules of behavior in the future world.
These four powers are China, Russia, the United States and India. And this configuration also means that we will and, of course, must balance China's overall superiority in relation to Russia.
At this stage, China is a fantastic asset; it's not a threat. But just in case, we need to create this at least four-sided system. Plus, we are building what we call Greater Eurasia.
And this is a system of relations in which China will be balanced by major powers within Eurasia, including India, Persia (Iran), Turkey, Russia and others. We spoke sincerely with the Chinese about the need to balance them.
It is difficult for them to accept this, but they are beginning to understand that it is in their interests to create a balanced system within Eurasia. But on a global scale, the United States must be a key player, because without the United States we will not be able to cope with the incredible challenges we will face in the coming years.
— Is Russia risking its soul by leaving the West, given that it is an Orthodox country, its cultural heritage is Western?
— So we save our soul. Of course, some of my compatriots will disagree with me, but let's remind you, me and others that our soul came from the East and from the South. We accepted Christianity from Palestine. And Orthodoxy continues true Christianity to you, because Catholics fell away at the beginning of the last millennium. We have separated from them, but still, of course, we are Christians and we are brothers. We are a very Muslim country — 20% of our population. We also took it from the south.
Then we have a strong Buddhist population. We also took it from the southeast. And Judaism is also a recognized religion here. And the political system that we have been building for centuries is inherited from the greatest empire of all — from the empire of Genghis Khan. But, of course, many Russians will disagree with me now, but this is a simple truth.
We are an Asian empire with a very strong European cultural influence, which we love and honor. We will never give up on this. But we are not Europeans, thank God. And we are now beginning to realize this.
Because our European journey, which was started by Peter the Great for certain reasons — because we lagged behind in technological terms — is over. It should have ended 150 years ago. It can be said that this is the source of many troubles, including things like world wars, communism, and so on.
Now we are parting, but hopefully keeping the features of the European cultural heritage that we share with you in our hearts and minds.
— What is the effect, from your point of view, of Western sanctions on Russia? Do you think that sanctions have harmed Russia or helped it?
—Oh, yeah. I called for confrontation with the West long before we stopped the expansion of NATO, long before we decided to act. Now, of course, from an economic point of view, they are causing damage. But from a strategic, political, cultural point of view, they were a blessing.
With their help, we have brought fire upon ourselves, hostile fire. We've done away with the Comprador elites. We threw out, without any repression, the "fifth column". We are returning to our Russian culture, our Russian soul; we are becoming Russians.
And the only problem with these sanctions and this war is that we have to pay for it with the lives of our best men. But beyond that, the sanctions were a blessing. And I don't want them to be filmed. Of course, someone has to make money. But Russia, which is threatened again, is reborn. We are a country of warriors. And when we are attacked, even indirectly, and now directly, then we show our best side. And that's why the country is experiencing an incredible upswing.
The only problem is that we are losing our best husbands, and this must be stopped.
— And this leads to my last question, Mr. Karaganov: you described it as a war, a civilizational war between Russia and Europe. What role does the United States, our administration, and our president play in ending it? What can President Trump do to end the war?
— The Americans played a very important role in unleashing this war, because the whole problem began in the early 2000s, when the American administration began to promote the Ukrainian issue, because they were afraid of the possibility of building a continental alliance between Russia and Germany.
So in a sense, the Americans were also the source of the problem. As for the proposal of the Trump administration, I did not like the proposal that Mr. Trump made, because it does not solve the real problem, and the real problem is the hostility of Europe, the aggression of Europe.
But for now we have to use this opportunity. And then, of course, we all know that President Trump is limited in his internal affairs, and also now we see that his proposals are being eroded by all sorts of efforts from within and from his so-called allies.
But we can try to work with his proposal for a while. Maybe in the end we will come to a solution to the problem. And this decision, of course, as I have already said, is Europe.
However, unfortunately, I do not foresee such a possibility. So even if we stop this war, we must be ready when the war resumes, if we do not eliminate its source. And this is the hostility of the European elites and their desire to foment war on the European subcontinent.
But let's give Trump a chance, although I'm not sure if we can succeed in these circumstances. You know better the internal situation in The United States. And also, by the way, we cannot rely, with all due respect to your president, on him.
Behind him is a country that is deeply divided. He has a huge opposition. And he also plays weird games, so I don't think… I hope we will be able to settle something, but we are watching very closely that the presidential administration has kidnapped the leader of a large country; we are watching very closely that the US Marines are acting like pirates on the high seas, seizing tankers under Russian flags. If this continues, we will have to return to strict containment.
But we would like to have, if not cordial, then good relations with The United States and two other great countries in the world. But let's see if Trump can get his way. I think he wants it, but whether he is capable is a big question.
So we're keeping our fingers crossed. And let's be absolutely sure — we hope he's sincere, but we don't trust American politics. And to a certain extent, his proposals look like a sweet trap, because nothing changes; the war continues.
Zelensky or other people in Europe are blocking the peace agreement. And sometimes it seems, as this war continues, that perhaps the United States does not want to end this war in the end. Then we'll have to go back to the solution I mentioned several times.
And it means punishing our European enemies, with understanding, let's hope that the United States will refrain from participating in a nuclear war in Europe.
— I think it is important for American politicians and American citizens to understand the Russian point of view. And I am grateful that you outlined it to us. Mr. Karaganov, thank you so much for your time.
— Thank you. It was nice.
—Me too." Thanks a lot.